Friday, and the concluding part of the conrep at last.

[avevale_intelligencer]

Parliament still there as far as I can tell. They're probably waiting for full attendance before they teleport the place. Yeah, that'll be it. (In which case, of course, they might as well not bother.)

*sigh* One of my characters spent eight years in a fictitious mental home because of these people. This time round it might end up being me. (Of course, reading this paragraph, you may already be backing nervously away and hiding the French cook's knife. Soren will understand, though.)

Anyway. Onward.

When I woke up, the Dead Mouse Filk had been going on for some time. (Further explanation: the final circle at a filkcon always takes place after the closing ceremony and therefore outside the con proper. Some people are already leaving, because they have to be at work on the morrow, and there's a traditional air of exhaustion and determination to wring the last drops out of the con about it. Thus it became known as the "dead dog" circle. And, since fans never name something once if they can name it lots of times, the particular deceased animal is now subject to change according to whim. This year it was a mouse.) So up I got and wheeled Jan towards the room in question, and as we went in Silke was just coming out.

(I had indicated, when apologising for missing her set, that I had wanted to hear her sing some more, and she had been waiting for me to turn up, and had just given up on me and decided to have a break. Unfortunately, I didn't know this, and so it looked a lot more pointed than it was. Happily we had a chat later and straightened it all out.)

My memory of the circle is mostly dominated by Piers. Piers is one of those people *I* find intimidating, though I know he doesn't mean to be; he's big (yes, I know, I know, but I only think of myself as "big" when it's a disadvantage), he has a beautiful voice and a seemingly bottomless fund of unimpeachably authentic actual folk songs, as opposed to the cheap knockoffs I turn out, plus he's Northern and I'm a soft southern pansy so there's privilege guilt there. Fortunately my internal confurblings are of no significance in the real world, and he's very nice and believes in libraries.

Another good thing about Piers is that whenever he's singing I always seem to be able to find a really nice harmony. (Well, it sounds nice to me, and nobody's thrown me out yet.) He did a couple of shanties, including one where the verse consisted of:

[Insert something here] wouldn't do us any harm (x3)
And we'll all hang on behind.

Various somethings were duly inserted, some of them alcoholic. I didn't get to throw in "a cong-a line", which was a shame, but it was fun, and the harmonies on the chorus, "We'll roll the old chariot along," were truly amazing.

There were lots and lots of other good songs and stories as well, from Tiggy and Emily and Soir and 36 whose other name I didn't manage to retain and Talis and Rhodri and Steve and Katy and lots more people. And in the fullness of time Silke came back in and sang, and it was good.

One problem relating to circles was highlighted for me by the experience of two friends, though it's happened to me too. This is when a circle which started out small and bardic becomes too big (in someone's opinion) to carry on being bardic, and the someone suggests that it go chaotic, and other someones enthusiastically agree, and it was just about to be your first turn to sing. It's quite possible to feel extremely got at and put out under those circumstances, and the friends in question actually got up and left. This all happened while I was still sacked out in the lounge area, and I found out about it later, but it seems to me there ought to be a way to mitigate this somehow. Perhaps while the circle is still within notional limits for bardicness the self-appointed someone could say "one more turn around and then can we go chaotic," thus giving the non-pushy ones at least one go, and the people who can't stand chaos at any price a chance to leave without it looking pointed. I don't know. Just a thought.

Anyway. There was good singing, and I got to play Mich's keyboard a bit, and then it was time for bed.

And that was Cre2c3ndo. Next year's con, Duple Time (2/4), will also be in Grantham, with Mary Crowell as the overseas guest and Lissa (as I've mentioned) as British guest. We've booked. See you there?

Comments

[keristor.livejournal.com]

Re: circle size -- if it's too big for bardic then it's Too Damn Big, period[1]. Whoever it was suggesting chaos (I wasn't there) should have been sat on immediately, because what they are saying amounts to "I want to perform more often than is a reasonable share". If a circle is too big for your liking, go somewhere else (possibly put a suggestion, "is anyone interested in setting up a chaos circle?".

I agree that any change in format should either be unanimous or should allow sufficient time for people to adjust. From bardic then one full circle is reasonable, from chaos to bardic is not so easy to limit but number of songs equal to number of performers might be reasonable.

(And I did get to hear you do "Centipede Questions", which was good. I missed all the others, apologies to them...)

[1] Of course, if it's too big for chaos then it's also Too Damn Big for bardic. What both mean is "we have to wait too long before we get to perform", and neither form is any better at handling that. The only solution is to split the circle so that those who don't like waiting as long can form their own smaller one.

[legoline.livejournal.com]

The only solution is to split the circle so that those who don't like waiting as long can form their own smaller one.

Which is fine with all the "regular" circles, but that final one usually happens when the con is over, and the hotel/location has only one more room to spare.

[keristor.livejournal.com]

There's the bar area, which can take one in the 'solarium' area at least. We can probably get the other room off the lobby as well. FC has a lot more problem with that, with only the Rittersaal available.

A bigger problem seems to be an unwillingness to split even when there are rooms. We've had times before with 3 or more rooms available, and they just don't get used, people seem to either sit in the big circle and complain or they go to bed. The times when one person has sat down in the bar or wherever and played with a couple of others (or even just by themself) they do seem to attract a circle, but few people seem willing to start that.

Saturday, for instance, there seemed to be a reluctance to do circles at all, when I went to bed there was no one in the main room and only a few doing a circle in the one by the lobby. Almost everyone seemed to be in the bar lounge.

[deborah_c]

I think there's both a minimum critical mass which makes it harder to start a circle, and also a tendency for everyone to want to be where the BNFs are. The small circle on (I think) Friday night worked with half a dozen or so people, but they included Talis and Simon and (I think) Zander, and possibly Bill (I forget). A small circle with only people like me in it will grind rapidly to a halt. (If one can grind rapidly...)

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

The Anchor bar singers at Sidmouth (huge, fast moving, strict bardic with a token "the twig", can take over an hour to get round with, essentially, no pauses) have the "rule" that 3's quorate. The circle will fill in, and if it doesn't, there's enough variety. I'm half tempted to attempt an Anchor style session at Halsway next year.

[deborah_c]

Sorry, meaning "three's enough to start a circle"? If it's three people with your repertoire, or Talis', or
Zander's, sure. Three people with my repertoire will run out of things to do after a few minutes, though! (Besides, I shudder at the thought of inflicting my voice on people that often...)

I've seen a circle at GAFilk that was only four people, but effectively only two -- Tony and Vixy, and Rand and Adam. It worked fine for them despite being essentially trading songs; curiously, despite being BNFs, it didn't really gather other people, in my case, because I didn't dare join in with people of that quality.

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

Yup, three's enough. Especially in a room where a circle is expected. Repertoire's handy, but you're in a circle room. If you exhaust the three of you's repertoire before the circle grows, then maybe the circle wasn't meant. At least you've enjoyed yourself rehearsing your stuff and there's no harm in repeating yourself later - only two other people heard you, after all.

[deborah_c]

Actually, I disagree. I think the suggestion of changing came from Franklin, who actually (as far as I remember) didn't actually sing anything (or maybe one song?) after that.

For someone who's prolific and has lots of songs on many topics, Bardic isn't a problem; whatever the theme when the circle gets to you, you have something appropriate. For someone like me, whose repertoire (outside nMC songs, which I only tend to use at cons where we're not known so much) runs to about half a dozen songs, Bardic usually means that I only have something appropriate to what the theme was an hour and a half ago, so I just don't sing.

In this year's circle, after we went chaotic, I think I sang twice and read once. Over six hours (the last couple with quite a small circle) that's about the same rate as Bardic, but meant that I actually got to do things at more apposite times. (OK, one of them was still about four hours after it would have been most appropriate, but that's because I don't have the confidence to break in when there are lots of people vying for attention, or, more or less, anyone...)

(There's another interesting effect with Bardic which I've seen before, as well, which is that people who sing together as a group tend to sit together, so it can turn into a 20 minute mini-set quite easily. And, of course, joining in with people who have pre-rehearsed material as an existing group is much harder.)

Having said that, some people did sing much more frequently than they would have with Bardic; I think, on the whole, that most people were content with that because they like hearing them, although maybe those who were disgruntled were just keeping quiet.

[pola-bear.livejournal.com]

The only way that I can deal with breaking into chaos circles is to release myself of the idea of 'followers'. I do not really have a lot of songs which are suitable as followers much of the time, but if no one changes the theme and mood you end up in a theme circle you did not sign up for. I have no problem with people using followers, especially those who find it makes it easier for them to perform or break in. And I certainly think it shouldn't be a problem to go back a few to do a follower.

Also, I'm sorry for slightly stepping over you in that circle; you seemed to be setting up and I had a song I wanted to do that was a minute long, if that and had been stepped on when about to start for about 6 songs so I took my chance.

[deborah_c]

It's fine -- you were just as entitled to sing as I was!

[keristor.livejournal.com]

IMO bardic shouldn't be themed. The point of it is that everyone has an equal chance, in order, themes break that (and is why I rarely go to a themed circle unless it is either only to listen or the theme is so broad that almost anything fits: I'm thinking of the Decadence "blue" circle which had anything from blues to bawdy songs, anything remotely related to the word).

However, I stick with Zander, if it is going to change from Bardic to Chaos then at the very least anyone who was close to their turn (I'd agree 'everyone', all round the circle) should be given the chance. If I'd been waiting a couple of hours and then someone changed it just before it got to me then I'd have walked out as well, and probably wouldn't have been at all polite about it. It would certainly feel like being picked on, even if the person suggesting it had no intention of doing so. (Even more so if, as in pbristow's example, the person had voluntarily skipped the previous turn because they'd just come in when it was their turn.)

[deborah_c]

I have some sympathy for that -- last year, I came into the dead dog and sat down, to discover that the circle was two people past where I was. It went round nearly twice in the next four and a half hours, until someone walked in, said "I'm going to sing now", after which the circle broke up (two places short of getting to me for the second time...)

I've never really figured out the etiquette of joining and leaving bardic circles, mind you. The phenomenon of the ever-shrinking bardic crescent (where everyone sings and then leaves) always seems a little bit rude as well, at least to me, if perfectly explicable!

I wouldn't say that the dead mouse circle was themed as such, but a lot of circles seem to run with a gently mutating thread to them. I actually think that brings something extra; I'd rather listen to a flow of songs instead of a random series of disconnected leaps, but maybe that's just me. (See also "nMC set planning" ;-)

[36.livejournal.com]

I've been told off before for believing/observing that one has to keep to the theme an unthemed circle happens to have set on. While 'followers' are a common excuse for pushing into a chaos circle, they're not the rule and bardic circles should allow the performer to sing or perform whatever they please regardless of whether it's related to anything that came before.

I agree with your observation about group performers sitting together and getting something of a mini-set every time the bardic circle gets to them. This is why everyone else should throw mood and theme to the wind and sing something completely different in order to keep some variety in the circle ;)

[legoline.livejournal.com]

Piers is an amazing singer and one of those people that make me return to the British FilkCon. To clarify, there are so many lovely British folk at the con that I wouldn't see otherwise and which have me return to the UK when I can, but musically speaking Piers is one of the highlights for me.

I have a soft spot for authentic folk music, which we don't get to hear often in Germany, so I'm always looking forward to Piers's songs. Particularly in combination with Tim Walker, like at this year's circle. Wow. Their voices go together so well. I didn't even join in when everybody was singing along. I just listened, having goosebumps.

[deborah_c]

I didn't join in either, but that's more a case of not wanting to spoil the sound.

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

Crikey! Thanks. But please, join in. Singing in company is so much more fun when everyone's singing.

[legoline.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! :)

Ah, I tend to be shy in circles. I felt very brave that I finally dared to bring a shaker along and actually used it a couple of times. :-)

[eintx.livejournal.com]

I wasn't there when it changed from bardic to chaos, but it usually happens on sunday when lots of folks come back from dinner and sit down everywhere, and suddenly it's not really clear whose turn it is.
I'm not this keen on _singing_ in circles, especially if I had a spot during the con anyway, but I am keen on _listening_ to those who don't sing very often, and I know for certain I'm not going to hear them once the thing has gone chaos.

[legoline.livejournal.com]

but it usually happens on sunday when lots of folks come back from dinner and sit down everywhere, and suddenly it's not really clear whose turn it is.

Hm, you have a point there.

[tattercoats.livejournal.com]

Sunday's circle... well, you list me as there, Zan, but I was on my way home at that point, so I hope I haven't got a doppelganger going round being me!

We did coincide at the Saturday circle there awhile - you told a story, which was good, and it was (imho) goodnaturedly chaotic, having grown that way out of a small gathering with well under ten people.

Just to clarify, or confuse. Either way... :-)

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

Whoops, you're right. See, my mind is going. By next year it'll be "Daisy, Daisy" or nothing...

[deborah_c]

I now have the image of you singing while someone gradually unplugs bits of your brain...

[pola-bear.livejournal.com]

I found the Sunday circle tough, but I did perform three times (the last with less than 10 people left in the room) which is more than I sometimes do all con.

I think it went chaotic before I got there? It was relatively late before I settled in the circle. Saturday night I certainly felt we needed two circles, but wouldn't know how to make that happen, especially when the many people in the circle that existed wouldn't know about it unless told, which sounds... odd, possibly even bad.

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

"One problem relating to circles was highlighted for me by the experience of two friends, though it's happened to me too. This is when a circle which started out small and bardic becomes too big (in someone's opinion) to carry on being bardic, and the someone suggests that it go chaotic, and other someones enthusiastically agree, and it was just about to be your first turn to sing. It's quite possible to feel extremely got at and put out under those circumstances, and the friends in question actually got up and left."

Oh, is *that* what happened? Yes. Problematic.

" Perhaps while the circle is still within notional limits for bardicness the self-appointed someone could say "one more turn around and then can we go chaotic," thus giving the non-pushy ones at least one go, and the people who can't stand chaos at any price a chance to leave without it looking pointed. I don't know. Just a thought."

A very *good* thought, though I note also Silke's point about people coming in and sitting at random points in the circle. (I realised shortly after I got there on Sunday that I had picked a seat that was only a few turns ahead of the current singer, so possibly I should have missed my turn that time to allow for folks who'd been waiting for a while to get their chance. I think the switch to chaos must have happened during one of my trips out to the bar - which often took longer than planned due to bumping into people I wanted to chat to! - 'cos all I remember about it is realising at some point "oh! we're not following the circle any more.")

Perhaps the thing to ask first, then, when contemplating a switch to chaos is "is there anyone who's been here a while (e.g. more than a quarter of a turn), but not had a chance to sing yet? Let's go round those folks, and then switch to chaos."

I *don't* think anyone who's only just entered the room has an automatic right to sing within the first few turns - especially if they're likely to then duck out to the bar for most of a cycle, or wait until they get a 2nd song in before going to bed. I also don't approve of the "well I need to go to bed now, so even though I've fairly recently sung I'm going to do my party/parting piece and then vanish": It clearly shows the person's priority is to perform, rather than to hear others perform. (Different matter if someone in the room says "will you sing us one before you go?")

[legoline.livejournal.com]

Perhaps the thing to ask first, then, when contemplating a switch to chaos is "is there anyone who's been here a while (e.g. more than a quarter of a turn), but not had a chance to sing yet? Let's go round those folks, and then switch to chaos."

I like this idea. I'm very much in favour of this.

[deborah_c]

The only problem, of course, is that with the size of the circle we tend to have (and it's worse at FC, of course), that's about three hours' worth...

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

The problem I have with big bardic as it happens In the he dead dog is the longeurs between songs. The anchor twig is brilliant in this regard. The singer passes it as she starts to sing, and if the recipient wants to pass, they pass the twig during the song until it ends up with the next singer, who can then ready themselves to perform as soon as the applause is over, passing the twig as they do. And new arrivals are left in no doubt as to where they stand in the circle.

I still prefer large bardic to large chaos though - personally, I reckon chaos is best left to small, 90% performer circles

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

'in the he dead dog'? Damn you autocorrect! And my lackadaisical approach to proof-reading of course.

[36.livejournal.com]

I really like the idea of having something passed around to the next willing performer while the current singer's performing.

[bardling.livejournal.com]

That's actually a good idea, with the twig, I like that!

[bardling.livejournal.com]

Heartily Seconded. Or thirded. Or suchlike!

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

My attitude to the "jump in front of the singer, sing one than bog off" type is "don't let the door hit you in the ass as you leave." The worst punishment for cheating is knowing you're a cheat, after all. Better to ignore the cheater than tie yourself in knots getting pissed off with them - you're the person who gets hurt by that because it'll spoil your enjoymrent of the circle.

For me, a circle is not a performance for an audience, shared pleasure to which everyone contributes. It's analogous to the way we sing from The Sacred Harp, the only audience is ourselves and that's great. The whole "well of course so and so should sing more often because they're more talented than me" idea is anathema. if it's worth doing, it's worth doing badly.

If you find yourself thinking "of course, I should sing more than everyone else because..." then STFU and go find yourself a willing audience to masturbate in front of.

And yes, I am aware that I could be accused of hypocrisy in this regard.

[occams_pyramid]

the way we sing from The Sacred Harp
Are you aware of the existence of The Scarèd Harp?

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

Yes. I was rather disappointed to discover that it wasn't written with shapes or four part harmonies throughout.

[occams_pyramid]

I think it was originally meant to be just version 1, but as far as I know it hasn't been updated at all.

[howeird]

I like your bardic-to-chaos solution.

---

You are so lucky to have Mary Crowell as your guest next year. She is a truly lovely person, and an awesome talent.

[thnidu.livejournal.com]

fans never name something once if they can name it lots of times

Especially UK filkers. Talk about unstable! Last year when I presented "Conomastics: The Naming of Science Fiction Conventions" at the annual meeting of the American Name Society in Baltimore, I had a separate slide two separate slides (this and this) for the UK Filk Conventions. You should have heard the gasps and groans! Come to think of it, you probably did.

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's what that funny noise was. :)

One of these days we'll get round to German too. Coming in 2043, the fifty-fifth British Filk Con: "She'll Have Fünfundfünfzig Her Daddy Takes The T-Bird Away."

[occams_pyramid]

We didn't actually start it. The Unicon series of conventions used to do the same thing, but they ran out of ideas a lot earlier. The only one I remember offhand was the eleventh, Uniconze, with a unicorn motif.

But it is all my fault. In a Contabile committee meeting when it seemed there might actually be a second UK filk con I made a remark something about "if we do actually run a Con2bile" and it was seized on.

[deborah_c]

Uniconze

*looks sheepish*

That, um, may have been my fault... Sorry. I also note that the motif was a unicorn wearing New Hall college's dome as a space helmet. We had a fantastic artist as a GoH that year!

[occams_pyramid]

Ah yes, I remembered they had a really good graphic, but not quite what it was.

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

Thanks Zander. What a shame we didn't get the conga line verse. I shall have to keep that one in reserve. I thought we'd exhausted contributions by the time we got to "an end to this song".

Sorry if I'm intimidating. I certainly don't mean to be.

[pdcawley.livejournal.com]

I was hoping for a few more specifically filky verses. You know the sort of thing:

A cute little tribble...
Some shore leave on Argo...
A Phoenix from the ashes...
Another round of bardic...

Next year.

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

"Another round of bardic..."

[SNAPS FINGERS (WHICH HE CAN ONLY DO IN CYBERSPACE)] That's it! An officially *biphasic* circle! We do one complete round of bardic, then we we switch to chaos for 10 songs, then back to bardic for one complete round, then 10 more chaos...

Needs a (probably nominal, once people get the idea) moderator to keep count, of course.

[36.livejournal.com]

I'm a Nat, it says so in my profile and everything :)

I agree with the comment that we usually (or at least in the last four cons) switch from bardic to chaos when a several people return from dinner, sit in random locations and double the size of the circle. 'Another time around' could then still upset people who arrived in the subsequent 90 minutes it took to get around the circle and didn't realise they'd chosen the wrong spot...

I personally think it's good practice when suggesting the circle goes from bardic to chaos to direct it to the next five or six people rather than the room in general and phrase it as 'I think this circle's getting a bit too big, perhaps we should consider going chaos soon, have any of you got anything prepared before we switch?'.

Although personally I like a really big bardic circle with lots of harmonising and singing along, we tend to get to hear more people who rarely perform and I can enjoy the performances without thinking about if I have 'followers'. It becomes more intimidating once it goes chaos.