I really should know better by now

[avevale_intelligencer]

I don't know why I keep doing it. I relax, I think I'm among friends, I tentatively bring out an idea that's close to my heart and I watch someone jumping up and down on the tiny shining thing because they choose to believe I've said something quite different. I don't think "Wouldn't it be nice if we could change our attitudes to the way we think about work and creativity" is quite the same as "Creative people should be let off work and everyone else should support them"; but I daresay I read old books of logic. Anyway, I don't suppose it would have cost me so much sleep if I wasn't still raw over the other thing, but as it is I don't even have the energy to be offended over what kind of person they obviously think I am.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

Comments

[joecoustic.livejournal.com]

Well I didn't feel my time was wasted - I liked what you said. It tied in with thoughts I've had in the past about my own creativity and with my experiences volunteering with kids.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Nor did I feel my time was wasted.

"Wouldn't it be nice if we could change our attitudes to the way we think about work and creativity" is a terrific idea, and well worth discussion.

"Some people feel the world owes them a living" pushes buttons and is, IMO, not in the same league as what you've said here. Nor is refuting or disavowing it anywhere nearly as clear as what you've said above.

[soren-nyrond.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't read the first discussion -- didn't want to be Depressed.
So this may have been said already. But I have Long Thought that it would be a Good Idea if a series of £10 funds were set up.

This can work wherever and whenever a bunch of people get together (semi-)regularly. Everyone agrees to put £1 per time (less than the cost of a drink) into a common fund. If you work in (nominal) 10s, that produces £10 per meeting. That £10 is then *loaned* to a needy creative person. They do creativity: everyone benefits. Later, when they're flusher again, they repay the £10. In the meantime, more £10s have been collected, and lent, and creativity has happened.
It would let people buy the sheet music of a song they've wanted to play. Or contribute to petrol to get Z from A to B and back, for a filk or a story-telling session.
For a small regular input, people get to see creativity at work.
And, as the song says "Every Act of Creation needs a Lot of Soap". Or is that washing a Nyrond ?

[cleverthylacine]

I have seen the floating economy of fandom in action many times, and for all that people on Fandom Wank make fun of us when we take up a collection to replace a ficwriter's stolen laptop or post wishlists, in a world where what we do best is not valued by the larger society, taking care of our own is only good common sense. I have benefitted from the largesse of others and I have paid some of it forward and hope to do more.

I go back and forth on the subject of 'the world owes people a living'. On the one hand I do not think it's right for anyone to be a leech, and I'm not sure how far I trust governments to take care of people anyway. In my youth I was quite convinced by FM Busby, Rand and Heinlein...

But on the other hand, I don't think G-d puts people into the world without the intention that they ought to stay there and do their Will and fulfil the divine purpose, which probably isn't to starve on the street.

[soren-nyrond.livejournal.com]

Personally I have strong objections to me starving on the street. However, living on reduced rations in a comfortable apartment, well furnished with books and wrtiing paper, and with good supplies of port and Silver Dragons .... I might be able to cope with that.

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

There's a charity giving site where they collect via paypal and give small amounts of money to people... I can't remember what it's called now, but I've given them money before.

[filkergem.livejournal.com]

Was it perhaps Modest Needs, at http://www.modestneeds.org/ ? If not, that's still a very worthwhile place for US folks to check out. I plan to send them money very soon now.

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

Yes! Modest Needs. I loved its original premise, which was that they weren't asking anyone to donate so much money that they'd feel aggrieved if they were scammed, and they were making relatively small donations to people to cope with sudden emergencies.

Random acts of senseless kindness

[aunty_marion]

...or something like that. I try to "pay forward" things that have been given/done to/for me. For instance (and a very pointed instance too!) - Zander and Janet kept me mentally afloat when I was depressed and out of work, and even fed me more than a few times, without asking for anything in return. So now that I'm solvent and no longer (quite so) depressed, I have the finances and energy to do the same for them, or anyone else who I perceive could do with a lift in life. If this means producing random Cthulhus, stripping half a hall's worth of wallpaper, knitting unexpected cardigans, turning up with a car and a sewing machine.... Well, why not? I can do it. Why shouldn't I? People have done much the same for me, *without expecting reward.* And so it goes round. Someday, probably, when I'm down on my life and luck again, someone else will pull a rabbit out of an invisible hat for me.

I don't owe them anything. They don't owe me anything. But if you can - do.

Re: Random acts of senseless kindness

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

Yes; when (relatively) poor I benefitted from the kindness of fans in many ways; I hope I can pay that back to some extent now.

[bardling.livejournal.com]

I do not feel the time was wasted either. I went back to that post and re-read it & all the comments I hadn't seen. I think there are some interesting points there, I also think there are some conflicts there, but to me it sounds more like a discussion than a jumping-on your lovely idea.
Some of the other ideas raised are also interesting, for example pbristow's opinion that parents owe the children they bring into the world a living until those children have learned how to provide for themselves is interesting. I'm not sure where I stand on that, actually. It makes me consider, alongside your (I still think lovely) idea, the idea of responsibility. If I accept a responsibility, do I not then "owe" the world, the community, the actions required to meet that responsibility? If I (freely, maybe even motivated by that ideal love, as a gift) give someone my word to do X, do I not thereafter also "owe" that person the doing of X?
If I bring a child into the world, a being that cannot care for itself, do I not by that act also accept the responsibility to care for & raise that child, or to make alternative arrangements for that? Of course, ideally the question of whether I owe anything (or what exactly) to that child should not come up, if I love it I'll want to care for it anyway. Still, if I die before I've been able to teach my child how to care for itself and survive, what about the child? There would be needs unmet there - and through no fault of the child.
Needs unmet, deficits... they lead to feelings of "but I didn't do anything wrong, it's not fair that the other children have X and I don't". I think that's perhaps where the attitude of "the world owes me something" comes from.

I sadly find that it is very difficult to get entirely away from the "trade" attitude, too, finding myself thinking about agreements made from free will, e.g. "I'll help you paint your house, You'll help me
make a dress" or "I've got money, I'll buy the paint, you've got the talent, you'll paint a wall picture - one for yourself in your house, one for me in mine" or "we both want X to exist, I'll do Y to help that, you'll do Z"... so long as these are made from free will... But how to deal with one person following through and the other not? Is there not an obligation that comes with a promise?
Even if it's a promise made as a gift - "Yes, I have spare time & a car, I'll gladly give you a lift to the airport tomorrow, 'cause I love you and like to see you happy" do I not then "owe" the person to follow through on the offer/promise?

It's all very muddled once I look at it more closely. But I do still very much like the idea, and I thank you for your courage to voice it and pose the question. *hug*

[keristor.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree, if one enters voluntarily into a contract (including a verbal contract) then they have accepted the obligation and responsibility to carry it out. If I offer to give you a lift somewhere, and then don't turn up, I have broken that obligation (had I not said that I would do it you could have found other transportation, for instance). Of course, one can avoid those responsibilities by never promising anything, never offering to do anything, and being a complete recluse, but in that case it is unreasonable to expect the rest of the world to help (if you get into a hole and pull the hole in after you, don't expect anyone to know you're there!).

I don't think it is possible to get away from 'trade' in general. Even the extreme communist societies have still had a set of obligations ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", with the 'ability' generally being assessed by the state or their comrades). If I need a hammer, it's no use that someone wants to give me a bag of apples. If the latrines need digging, it's no use if everyone sits round playing music. There are requirements of society for living.

[otherdeb.livejournal.com]

I think that asking for clarification is not "jumping up and down on the tiny shining thing." And when you bring ideas out for discussion, they are going to get discussed, and not all the commenters will agree with you (or each other for that matter). And you are among friends. Friends of varying opinions and experiences.

And I do agree that the two sentences you state above are different. But if there is one thing I have learned over the years in fandom (and I have been in fandom since the first Star Trek convention), it is that there will be spirited discussion of any topic that is brought up. In general, I think this is a good thing, even when people disagree with me, or misunderstand what I say, so long as they do so civilly. And nothing I have seen in the comments leads me to believe that folks are being uncivil to you.

I am sorry that you feel offended or hurt that people have done either, even though I cannot find any place in the comments where you -- as opposed to your idea -- were raked over the coals.

That said, it was -- and is -- an interesting discussion, and one that I am enjoying.

[bohemiancoast.livejournal.com]

sorry; I wasn't trying to jump on your ideas and I'm sorry that you perceived it that way.

[shannachie.livejournal.com]

I don't think you should feel offended. The discussion was interesting and differing opinions were, I believe, not stated to put you down. And even if not a single person had agreed with you - you'd still be entitled to your opinion.
And as that opinion goes, it would truly be nice if the creative could live of being creative. BEing creative is, after all, not only a talent but also a calling, a vocation. Unfortunately the salability of creativity is judged and handled mostly by people without that talent, calling, or vocation. o we all get chained to the plough by controllers and marketers.

[gingicat]

*hugs* It is not your fault if you explain something really well and one clueless git fails to get it.

[sodzilla.livejournal.com]

I definitely think the previous thread was valuable!

And for what it's worth, I myself am trying to internalize the whole "indebtedness process" when it comes to the purely social stuff. Whether it's favors to friends, kindness to strangers, or what have you, I tend to feel it's something I owe MYSELF... I do it not because other people require it of me or would be upset if I didn't, but because I want to be the kind of person who helps out when someone is in need.

[stevieannie.livejournal.com]

*looks all stern*

Don't apologise for starting an intelligent conversation!

I kinda like the occasional conflicts - nice to hear other people's opinions and rethink my own position...

FWIW: my comment about Person A not requiring Person B to give up their dreams? Entirely about my in-laws. I see someone I love going through a really hard time because of a perceived obligation. I wish I could stop it - everyone deserves some peace... Which I suppose isn't so *very* far from what you were saying about obligations and requirements...

Anyway, love you!

[keristor.livejournal.com]

You may have meant to say "Wouldn't it be nice if we could change our attitudes to the way we think about work and creativity", but what you actually said at the start was about people who "think the world owes them a living", and that's what got discussed mainly. It's a different topic. Sorry, people discuss what they see and not what might have been written in another universe.

And discussing and disagreeing with an idea is not an attack on you...

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

If it helps for future reference: I think people missed the core idea and latched onto your expression of some of the implications. Introducing it with the same "owes you a living" meme that spawned it backfired. People have their own reactions to that line, and were triggered by that, rather than grokking core idea of shifting from an "owing" mentality to an "able to give" mentality.

Plus, some people automatically start thinking in terms of systems of government, rather than in terms of the individual application of a personal philosphy. It's the latter approach that enables the "giving" culture to get strated and grow, but in the meantime the former approach has to coexist with it to handle all the people who haven't switched over yet (and the many who never will).

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

I know I shouldn't feel hurt or offended. It isn't something I can easily switch off though.

I'll stick to frothy stuff for a while, if that's okay with everyone.

As you wish ...

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

... but it's nice to see people enthusiastic and jumping up and down about things ...

... and one thing you can guarantee is that when you raise a subject that's within 10AU of someone's pet hobbyhorse, they'll somehow take the one tangential word in your well-thought out concept and somehow use that as a level to talk about what they want to talk about (I've not read the thread so I *can't* be criticising anyone in particular!)

And you just have to let the nearly-non-sequitors go and not get drawn into arguing with them about a different subject (suggest instead that they might want to take that topic to their own LJ and expand it there)

Hope life is treating you better than usual ...

[bardling.livejournal.com]

Feelings simply are. Not right or wrong, they just are. You feel hurt - that *is*.
I think & hope I have not contributed to that feeling, and again I want to say thank you for the thoughtfulnees to have, and for the courage to *voice* those thoughts. I think they are very good thoughts, and the main idea is rare & precious & good enough that it definitely deserves to get that outing & support.
Not everybody agreed, although mostly I've seen people go off on tangents rather than outright disagreeing, but it still engendered a good and mostly polite discussion that was very worthwhile, I think.
It also still hurt your feelings the way it happened, or some of the participants hurt your feelings by what they (we?) said. I don't think anyone there intended to hurt you, and I do think you were very sensitive and vulnerable to hurt because it is an idea that is very dear to your heart, and you opened yourself up to let it out, letting down your "protections". Still, your feelings are no less valid for that.

I offer hugs and a comfortblanket for awhile, and hope your hurt will heal and that you'll be able to continue giving of your thoughtfulness, when you're ready to. I value you and it.
*hugs*

[filkergem.livejournal.com]

I don't think that you wasted anyone's time in this most recent issue. I was certainly intrigued by your thoughts, even though I'm one who doesn't quite get what you were saying. I haven't been able to work out just how best to explain where I think that your thoughts and mine diverge, which is why I haven't posted anything. Rest assured that it caused me to spend some pleasant time pondering and rereading what you wrote. I am sorry that the result seems to have bothered you so much.