Sigh

[avevale_intelligencer]

I try to be reasonable. I try to be fair. I make every possible concession, I apologise when I've been offensive, I avoid dogmatism as far as I can, and I try to provide some kind of a bridge of understanding so that different mindsets can relate to each other. I try to say useful things, find new slants on ideas that don't seem to make sense, make a difference in some infinitesimally miniscule way to the discussion.

And I always, always, end up disappointed.

Matters not. Life goes on and all that. I'll be back tomorrow, because I am basically optimistic (or stupid, if you prefer). But for tonight I think I'm just done with the net.

Comments

[the-alchemist.livejournal.com]

I try to be reasonable. I try to be fair. I make every possible concession, I apologise when I've been offensive, I avoid dogmatism as far as I can, and I try to provide some kind of a bridge of understanding so that different mindsets can relate to each other...

Personally, I think you're really good at those things.

[earth-wizard.livejournal.com]

Hey buddy, not sure about anyone else, but in my opinion you have always been fair, optimistic, full of intelligence and allowed for that liberal vantage point that always takes in all sides of an issue and tries to hone in on the points that you agree with and disagree with in a egalitarian vision of balance and forthrightness.

I for one admire your tolerance on many issues, and most of the time agree with you on even those very touchy subjects that we all find so trying in these times of darkness. May you always hold up that lamp of enlightened reason and literary excellence that is the heart of our humanity... for your heart is big and a welcome part of this bloggers life and always will be... long live the smallship... haha!

Cheers!

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you are disappointed.

If you're referring to my post, though, I don't see the problem. I do not recall promising I would be convinced by your post(s). I did not call anyone names. I criticized only ideas, and in a mild, polite, cheerful way at that. If it's open minded to say "believe in astrology if you want" it's even more open minded to say "not only that, but pick any sign you like."

I do wonder if perhaps the problem is that you believe, deep down, that someone who holds a mistaken idea is stupid. Someone who believed that might assume that people who criticize certain ideas are automatically saying people who hold those ideas are stupid.

And someone who believed that might keep reacting as though criticizing certain ideas--not people, ideas--is rude. Setting out to demonstrate that people are stupid *would* be rude.

If this is the case, I'm not sure I can help. I myself thoroughly believe that smart people can hold wrong ideas. But I doubt I can transfer that belief to you if you don't start out with it.

The best I can do is--you can accept that a person might be wrong about one idea, but right about others, right? Someone might believe that the pyramids were built by space aliens, but otherwise have fairly conventional ideas, yes? Can you picture this person as being stupid *only* about the wrong idea, and smart about all the right ones, and thus still pretty smart? Does that help?

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

This.

I was going to say something on the lines of, "Not me this time, I think, though it usually is," and then go on to say that attacking ideas is not attacking people.

Even if I think the idea in question is stupid, I am not saying that you or everyone who holds that idea is stupid, or wrong about everything else.

I am sure I have plenty of ideas that are both wrong and stupid too, and I expect people to tell me so.

I think a lot of the problem lies in what you're used to IRL.

My sister-in-law found it very difficult to adjust to her husband's and my family, where we all rather enjoyed yelling at each other in frenzied debate about ideas - so much so that my parents took to taking up her point of view even when they didn't agree with it, just to balance things out.

A good friend of mine said the same thing about her husband's family, and that it was even worse when Ina and I and a number of other friends came to visit. She learned, though. I've seen her deflate her husband with a single devastating sentence. I was at their silver wedding what must be half a dozen years ago.

When I was depressed a few years ago, at least two good friends asked what the heck was wrong with me because, as much as they tried to initiate debate, I "wasn't arguing with them." (Or, in the case of one particularly feisty lady, nearly thirty years my senior, "Why isn't she yelling back at me!"

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

No, *I* do not believe that someone who holds a mistaken idea is stupid. I also do not believe (for instance) that astrologers are so bleeding stupid that they do not know that the outer planets take longer than a year to revolve around the sun.

But it really doesn't matter what I believe or what you believe, so let's just leave it at that.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

I also do not believe (for instance) that astrologers are so bleeding stupid that they do not know that the outer planets take longer than a year to revolve around the sun.
Exactly. When someone puts forth an idea (for example that astrology is about the positions of the planets and the sun, and not about the stars) but ignores the ramifications that he should know perfectly well (that the period of the cycle of positions of the planets is far longer than a single year) he isn't taking his own idea seriously.
In that case, why should we?
My point was not that this astrologer is ignorant of the solar system, my point was that this astrologer doesn't take the contention that astrology is not about the stars seriously.
And in a larger sense, this is how one handles ideas--take them seriously, match them against the real world, if they don't match, point out where so they can be fixed if possible or discarded if not, if they do match, work out the logical ramifications and see how *they* fit.... This is how one treats an idea seriously.
Not doing this, especially when it's because you believe the idea can't stand up to this sort of examination and matching is like patting a little child on the head as he babbles about Santa Claus. It's a fine, kind way to treat children and people you believe lack intellectual capacity to meet you as an equal. It's no way to treat someone you respect.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

No, *I* do not believe that someone who holds a mistaken idea is stupid.

You don't believe it, and I don't believe it, so what's the problem?

Somebody else might believe it, but they're just wrong, that's all. That happens.

And what you believe matters to me because I'm still trying to come up with a way to criticize mistaken ideas that doesn't leave you popping out in hives.

[rms-butterfly.livejournal.com]

*hugs* I enjoy hearing your opinions and thoughts, just so you know. I read, but don't say much.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

A little lost and puzzled here, but then I haven't been keeping up with all the discussion in your journal. What happens to disappoint you?

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

This (http://catsittingstill.livejournal.com/179953.html)

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

That appears to be a chatty rehash of the rather old news (by Internet standards) that astrology may or may not be rejigged to put us all into new signs. I see no smallships taking part in the discussion, I see no-one getting upset, I don't see a problem or any possible cause for a problem. Was that the right link?

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

Yep.

This is my take on it, you understand. But.

Smallship posted his thoughts on astrology (http://smallship1.livejournal.com/603554.html) a few days ago, and I commented several times. And a bit more here (http://smallship1.livejournal.com/603949.html), where I also commented.

My post that I linked to above was prompted in part by all the attention being paid (by a number of people on my flist) to the issue.

Smallship1 sometimes puts responses in his journal to stuff I wrote in mine (and vice versa, which I do either because he has closed comments or because I want to deal with something in more depth than a comment allows.) I'm pretty sure that he is responding to my post in particular because I looked through his friends list for the time period between his earlier posts and this one, and I'm the only one who posted anything on the issue.

As for why he is so angry--well, aside from the fact that I openly criticized an idea he was trying to, in some measure, support, I'm pretty much coming up empty.

Sometimes people are upset about something else and it just flows out all over some minor thing that wouldn't ordinarily bother them.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

Yes, now I've read a bit more of your journal, I think I get the point. Maybe. I still don't see any reason for anyone to get upset, but I'm seeing the rest of the split conversation, at least.

Would you mind if I "friended" you, in the LJ sense? I have no idea who you are in Real Life, but you're expressing more or less the same views I have, only expressing them much better, and I'd like to have your posts coming up in my feed.

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

I would be honored. Is it okay if I friend you in return?

In Real Life I'm Cat Faber--probably best known in filk, which is the folk music of the fans of science fiction and fantasy.

If you don't want to reciprocate with RL details, I totally understand, by the way--this wasn't intended to pressure you. I simply took your comment as expressing curiosity.

[janewilliams20.livejournal.com]

Do go ahead, though my LJ is more a means of keeping a wide range of networks up to date with my personal news (plus exasperated comments on various programming tools) than intelligent commentary on things, and thus may be a less interesting read to people who don't know me in RL.

I know what filk is, roughly, but never got particularly involved with it as such - to me it's just one more way of expressing whatever actual subject I'm interested in, so I've written songs based in the Far Isles, and some for Glorantha (roleplaying universe), but don't regard it as something I'm interested in as a method any more than "using a pen" is one of my interests.

I'm a programmer, database designer, agnostic-ish (usually), roleplayer, sometime writer, inerested in just about any sort of craft, used to be re-enactor of sorts (Far Isles and ACWS). And a few other things. I get interested in just about everything.

Real name is pretty obvious, I think?

[catsittingstill.livejournal.com]

Thanks. If I drop you from my flist it won't be anything personal--I have trouble keeping up sometimes, and have been known to prune from desperation.

Yeah, I figured I had a pretty good clue to your real name unless you were deliberately obfuscating :-)

I'm an unemployed molecular biologist, roleplayer (when I get the chance), GM, used to be in the SCA, interested in various crafts but presently most interested in canoe building.

[dickgloucester.livejournal.com]

It's debate. People get heated; people get rude. It's hard to deal with, but it's valuable to do.

Please don't stop.

*hugs*

[bedlamhouse]

I don't often comment. Sometimes that is due to time, sometimes it is just because I haven't got a coherent statement that expresses how I feel.

I want to say, however, that I find your musings thought provoking and important to my daily dose of "intelligent people who don't think the same way I do".

Keep it up, please.