Suspicious

[avevale_intelligencer]

The Countess has elected to use part of her early release money to get us a conservatory. After various local firms had failed to call us back (I'm sure we're on a list somewhere) we went with [COMPANY] because they have a good reputation. The usual scenario: rep calls, gives us the sales pitch, quotes price, we fall down, rep says there may be special offers later on. Later on, someone else from [COMPANY] calls, quotes us a price we can juuuuuust about afford, and after much soul-searching we sign up. That was a couple of months ago.

I've just read a letter from [COMPANY] saying "the unfortunate scenario of an under-costing has arisen." Basically, the price just went up, by how much they haven't said, and if we don't pay "part of this shortfall" we don't get the conservatory.

Now. If this were a less reputable company than [COMPANY] (say, to pick a couple of fictitious names purely at random, Mont Blanc plc or Kanchenjunga UK) I would suspect that what they had done was push the price down to an unrealistic level to get us to sign on, wait a couple of months to let us get used to looking forward to our lovely new conservatory, and then start pushing it back up in the belief that we'd pay whatever they wanted rather than forfeit the dream. If I thought they were pulling that kind of shabby trick on us, I would be very very angry indeed, not least because we have a certain sum of money ringfenced to pay for this thing and beyond that we cannot go. If the Countess ends up being disappointed because of this, my rage will know no bounds.

But of course a reputable company like [COMPANY] would never stoop to such low contrivances, would they?

I'll wait to form a judgment till they let me know how much the "shortfall" is. If we can do it, we will. If not, expect fireworks.

EDIT: just in case anyone is refinancing their pants and reads this far back, the "undercosting" may have been a misunderstanding. Waiting to hear back, but still not too impressed.

Comments

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

If you signed a contract for a specific sum, then I don't think they've got a leg to stand on. We once had a rep in to quote for a front door. It became clear that their front doors were too plain expensive. inamac did her thing about sitting and encouraging him to natter, and he kept lowering the price. It ended still too high for us. However, the next day his boss rang to say how grateful he was that we hadn't accepted, because the salesman had gone below cost. However, it was clear that if we had, indeed, signed, we would have got the door at that cost.

If it's the company I'm guessing from the name, then our experience with them is that their quotes are high in any case. They quoted twice as much for doing the windows of the last house as the company that eventually put them in.

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

The Countess can do that sitting and nattering thing. I can't. I really envy her sometimes.

But that's useful to know, if true. If the salesman's given us a price that's below cost, and we've signed the contract to get it at that price, then does that mean that theoretically they're bound to supply it at that price?

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

I'm no lawyer, and you will have to read the small print. It may say somewhere in there in tiny letters that they can put the price up if they feel like it (though the usual tactic is to suddenly find extras you need and add them in.) If you'd cancelled the contract, they would hold you liable for at least part of the cost, remember, and sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. There can certainly be no harm in pointing this out to them, firstly in polite terms, then in increasingly stronger ones. Such clauses can also be ruled unfair, particularly if the rep didn't point this out to you at the time.

If it doesn't have such a clause, then if they don't honour their side of the contract you can, at the very least, make their lives very uncomfortable - letters to Watchdog dragging their name through the mud and all that. You might well have a small claims case against them. A letter to the managing director is a good start.

[keristor.livejournal.com]

As I understand it (IANAL) if they supply it they must do so at that price, but they could pull out and say that they can't supply it at all. What they can't do is change the price and then force you to pay the higher price (if they want to change it then the current contract is void). Which may not be what you want (you don't get the goods) but at least they don't bankrupt you in the process.

Personally I wouldn't trust any of those sorts of people or companies who use sales reps. I threw one window rep out, because he kept pushing me to have the (expensive) double-locked windows and using phrases which sounded very much like "nice stuff you've got here, shame if something 'happened' to it" (and I then called the company, told them what their rep had said and told them that if anything 'happened' to my house I would be reporting them to the police as a protection racket). They were one of the large companies, and another one who priced things high and then said "but we might be able to reduce it".

[inamac.livejournal.com]

You need to read the small print. It does sound suspicious to me that they've waited until the statutory 'no compensation' cooling off period is up before trying to hike up the price. It's also not clear that they've actually started work on manufacturing the parts for your specific job (usually they do this within a week or so of measuring up, and any overspends would come to light at that stage - which is the point at which they might ring you and ask whether you still want to proceed).

Ask them excatly why it's going to cost more, and where the comtract specifies you pay for their mistakes.

[dickgloucester.livejournal.com]

What they are doing sounds illegal to me. I'd get onto Trading Standards, Watchdog, and Citizens' Advice.

And also, I'd find someone else to supply the conservatory. This lot sound very, very dodgy.

[dickgloucester.livejournal.com]

In addition, I think that if a company is going to behave like this before installation, can you trust them do do that properly, without screwing you for "unforeseen" things?

[shannachie.livejournal.com]

Changing a fixed price would be illegal in Germany. The law here is if you find an item - even if it should have the wrong price tag - the vendor has to sell it at the stated price.

[aunty_marion]

I think it was pola_bear who used to sell conservatories over the phone. She might have some inside information.

I agree with others - waiting till after the cooling-off period and then putting up the price sounds very dodgy. I also second the recommendations for contacting Trading Standards, etc.

Does your local library have a subscription to Which? at all? (I think a lot do - though you might have to go into Trowbridge, perhaps.) If so, it might be worth checking the index to see what their most recent article about such things says. It's the sort of thing that (as I recall) came up fairly regularly.

[keristor.livejournal.com]

The Citizen's Advice Bureau should have some information and advice.

[bigjobhagmissy.livejournal.com]

If [COMPANY] is any kind of national outfit I would view them with deep suspicion. It's my impression that this kind of trick is commonplace - another so-called reputable company tried it on us. I would think your best option is to get your deposit back and walk away. I don't think they would legally have a leg to stand on regarding refunding your deposit, but if they try, then there is Trading Standards, Watchdog, national press, small claims court etc etc - just stand your ground.

I would always prefer to go to a smaller local firm with a good word of mouth reputation. For one thing they have at least a little more onus on them to behave themselves, and they won't have the considerable overheads (to be recovered from their customers) of a large sales organisation. But this is just my opinion; I don't have any hard facts to support this notion, and there are plenty of overpriced or cowboy smaller firms too.

[occams_pyramid]

If they are in the business of building conservatories and got the price of a conservatory wrong by a large amount then they are presumably either incompetent or crooked.

[catalana.livejournal.com]

I agree with waiting to see how much the shortfall is before deciding what to do. Unfortunately, almost all building/contracting projects end up with cost issues. Sometimes it's because they estimate poorly, and sometimes it's because they find something out while they're doing it that they didn't know about.

(For instance, a friend of mine is completely redoing his bathroom. Now, he's doing it himself, but had he paid someone else to do it, he would have had an unpleasant surprise: it turns out that all of the insulation in the walls was moldy, so he had to rip all of that out as well. There wasn't any way to tell this until he got down to the insulation, so it wasn't something that could have been estimated in advance.)

That, however, usually only occurs once they've started on the job. It's not clear to me how they could change the price before that time (because it sounded like they hadn't actually started working on it yet from your post.)

Good luck sorting this out. *hug* What a pain!

[stevieannie.livejournal.com]

Have been offline for a while, so hope I haven't missed the window of usefulness on this one. I am, also, not a lawyer, but I do co-own a building company, and one who has worked for a conservatory installation company.

I can imagine no occasion at which a company would be able to see an undercosting at this stage - it may well happen at a later date, but very rarely with something as straightforward as a conservatory. Overruns do occur, but usually when the contractor runs into some kind of problem (walls not straight, client changing their spec. mid-job, uncovering wiring that needs replacing etc.). None of that occurs until the job is started, and if a contract for goods and service has been signed, it's pretty much tough luck for the contractor for not pricing the job more efficiently, or finding ways to cut cost in other areas (if the client changes their mind, then it's a justifiable cost, but that doesn't sound like the case here).

Whilst a conservatory seems a big deal to you both, from a construction point of view, it's really nothing more than a series of windows bolted onto the outside of the house, and should have a fixed price, unless you've suddenly decided to mirrortile the floor and fit it out with door to door widgets that you only discovered yesterday.

If you'd like to fax a copy of the quote to me (my fax no. is the same as my telephone number on the Swigglelist, call me first to let me know and I'll turn it on) I'll be happy to go over the quote/contract for you and even phone the company and find out what is going on. These companies tend not to bullshit people who have a little more experience :-)

I don't think that they've pulled the situation you suggest. What I suspect is more likely is that due to the credit crunch, they've had a lot of people defaulting or cancelling and their cashflow sucks rocks (it's happening to a lot of us at the moment). In order to cover that, they are putting up prices across the board. This is their prerogative, but NOT in cases where the goods and services have been agreed and signed for.

Have you put down a deposit? Anyway, if you want Mrs A. "Gobby Cow" Walker on your case, I'm yours.

[howeird]

In the US this comes under 50 different sets of laws (it's done state by state) but in most states, the price on the contract is binding on both parties.

As this is a respectable company, and the original rep is not the person who made the "undercosting" call, my guess is the original rep has been caught deliberately under-quoting, and pocketing the commissions, and has been escorted out of the building by burly ex-rugby players in too-small pin striped suits.

IMHO, the correct answer to them is "let me talk to my solicitor about this".