The old stories are the oldest

[avevale_intelligencer]

In the Iliad, composed around 720-700 BCE, possibly by somebody called Homer, a bunch of legendary Greek heroes are engaged in the siege of the city-state of Troy. As the poem begins, the siege has been on for several years; other poems from the same oral tradition, now mostly lost, tell the story of how and why the war began, and we know it from fragments and summaries by later writers.

(No, this isn't the Homer piece I teased you with a couple of posts ago. This seemed more, shall we say, topical. I'll do that one another time, okay?)

As the Iliad opens, we meet Chryses, a priest of Apollo from a neighbouring city-state allied to Troy, whose daughter Chryseis has been taken by Agamemnon, the de facto leader of the Greek forces, as a war prize. Chryses goes to Agamemnon and begs for his daughter's return, offering rich gifts as compensation. Agamemnon angrily refuses and sends Chryses away with a flea in his ear, whereupon Chryses prays to Apollo, reminding the god of all the sacrifices and stuff he, Chryses, has done in Apollo's name, to strike the Greeks with pestilence. Apollo does so.

There follows a big argument between Agamemnon and Achilles, who leads the majority of the Greeks in thinking Agamemnon should give the girl back and stop their armies beingg slaughtered.

Agamemnon: "No! MINE! My preciousss!" (I paraphrase a little.)

Achilles calls Agamemnon a few names, whereupon Agamemnon says "Well, if I've got to give my trophy woman up I'll take yours instead, so ner to you." And does so. Achilles then in his turn flies into a passion, takes his ball and goes back to his ships saying "You'll be sorry," and calls on his mother, who is a sea-nymph, to talk to Zeus, the top god, to make him help the Trojans win from now on.

At which point we can imagine the reaction of the (Greek) audience listening to this.

"WTF, Homer? How dare you mess with our hero! Achilles is the very embodiment of what Greece can and should be, and you've made him be on the Trojans' side! This is a betrayal of everything the original poets intended when they started these stories! You've turned a celebration of Greek heroism and courage into a hollow mockery that spits on our very national identity! I'm shocked, shocked I say!" You get the idea.

Nothing changes.

Comments

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

Heh. Captain Greece, eh? =:o}

[jahura.livejournal.com]

BONNNNNNNNGGGG...

"Olympus, home of the gods. You serve us."

"I'd like to speak to Zeus, please."

"He's not available at the moment, perhaps I may leave a message."

"Thus is Thetis and I need to speak with him right away. It's about Achilles, and it's urgent."

"Rest assured, madam, I shall deliver the message with haste." *click*

BOOOONNNNGGGGG....

"Olympus, home of the gods. You serve us."

"This is Thetis, again. I need to speak to Hera right away. It's about my son."

"One mome-"

"Hello? Hello? Thetis! How great to hear from you! How are things in the sea?"

"I don't have time for chit-chat, Zeus. Our son is in a world of pain and I need some support from you for once."

"Errr....what kind of support?"

"WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT?! Honestly, I just don't get you Titan spawn. Your son is going up against the King of Athens and his armies and he needs your protection! Now!"

"I thought this was Apollo's beef."

"MAYBE I SHOULD ASK YOUR WIFE."

"Now calm down, let's not be hysterical. He is invincible, we made sure of that. I'll talk to Apollo and Ares and see what we can do about the army. Is that suitable for you?"

"Please do!"

"Anything else?"

"That's it for now."

"Great. Give a shout out to Sid for me." *click*

*sigh* "Gods. Worst baby-daddy ever."

[batyatoon]

Zander, you know I love you, but you're wrong on this one.

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

I know about the ways in which one of these things is not like the other, and I would never seek to blur that line. And if it comes to it, I'm none too sure that the ancient Greeks regarded their mythical stories in the same way we regard either fiction or fact, so their reaction to an admired hero turning against them was probably quite different. I'm sorry I caused offence and will not do it again.

[batyatoon]

<3

Also, on the less emotionally-and-historically-fraught level, the way in which Achilles turns on the Greeks is entirely in keeping with his characterization as shown in virtually every story about him, and is generally shown as virtually inevitable given his nature and his situation.

It's possible that a sufficiently talented writer could construct a scenario in which Steve Rogers joining Hydra would read as similarly inevitable, given his nature and his situation, but this wasn't it by a long shot.

[zanda-myrande.livejournal.com]

What bemuses me is that for 2,700 years or so this petulant prima donna has been regarded as the ideal of heroism. As has Agamemnon, who was just as bad. Our whole conception of what it means to be a hero is founded, I can only conclude, on not having read the Iliad and Odyssey.

[batyatoon]

Considering that the Iliad opens by talking about how Achilles's wrath basically RUINED EVERYTHING, I am not at all sure that what we mean by "hero" is anything like what the Greeks meant.